Transcript

The transcript below has been lightly edited for readability and clarity. Click any starting timestamp to jump to that exact point in the YouTube video.

Podcast Introduction

[00:00] Don Costante:

Welcome to The Rundown Podcast, hosted by Don Costante, a sports and event management expert with over 25 years experience. This unique podcast provides an opportunity to hear from some of the best professionals in the industry. You’ll get valuable insight and perspective on what it takes to deliver authentic experiences, activate brands, and most importantly, connect with audiences. All on The Rundown Podcast. Let’s get started.

Season Two Begins: Helping Job Seekers

[00:27] Don Costante:

This episode marks the start of season two for the Rundown Podcast. I started this podcast a year ago with the intent to help people. Whether you’re in college or a seasoned professional, my goal has always been to deliver subject matter that’s meaningful and beneficial to achieving success within the sports industry. With that in mind, I thought I would use my first episode of the season to focus on helping job seekers. Let’s face it, the job process can be difficult and in some cases, overwhelming, causing self-doubt and sleepless nights. If you’re currently looking for an opportunity, today’s discussion is going to provide you with valuable information that will set you up for success and illustrate the right way to approach the job search. My guest today is Brian Clapp. For over 25 years, Brian has worked in broadcast and digital media as a writer, editor, producer, news director, manager, content marketer, and strategist. Currently, Brian serves the role of vice president of content and engaged learning for workinsports.com. Brian is the host of the work in sports podcast, which features industry experts sharing their insights and career advice

Meet Brian Clapp

[01:35] Don Costante:

that helps job seekers better understand what skills are needed to thrive in the sports industry. In this episode, Brian and I talk candidly about the job search process. Listen, as we discuss several job seeking tactics that just might get you thinking differently as you tackle the sports industry’s job market. During our conversation, we touch on important topics, including the first step everyone should take before starting the job search, the construction of a resume, how cover letters can impact you, the most effective strategy for building a professional network, differentiating yourself in an interview, whether an advanced degree gives you an advantage, resources to help you, and much more. I’m ready to get started. Let’s meet Brian Clapp. Hi, Brian. Thanks for joining me on the Rundown today.

[02:25] Brian Clapp:

Don, always a pleasure. Thanks for having me on. I believe the last time we spoke was in 2018 and I was a guest on your podcast. Yeah, it’s funny. I do a lot of work to try to find interesting guests and I go sometimes looking team by team. I go sometimes looking at different organizations and different places, just looking for interesting careers to focus on and interesting people to focus on. And I remember when you and I got connected and seeing what your job was and what your role was, and I was like, this will be a cool conversation. So it was great having you on that. And I’m thrilled to be back talking to you again now. Well, I can tell you, I’m excited today to have a conversation with

Brian Clapp’s Career Path

[02:59] Don Costante:

you regarding job seeking tactics that will hopefully help and inspire those who are currently looking for job opportunities. But before we get into the nitty gritty, can you just take a moment and share your career path to becoming vice president of content and engaged learning for workinsports.com

[03:15] Brian Clapp:

It’s funny, like I never set out, this is the thing that I try to tell people all the time. I never set out to be doing what I’m doing right now as far as focusing on helping other people get jobs in the sports industry. That’s not how I started my career. I didn’t have that as an end goal. That’s one of the most interesting parts I think about careers is that they’re not always a straight line. You know, like you’re going to find out new things about yourself as you go through your journey. You’re going to figure out things that you like, and you want to lean into them. And you’re going to figure out things you don’t like, and you want to lean away from them. And I’m sure we’ll talk a lot about that kind of stuff. But for me, basically, I started out college as a chemistry and biology double major, because I thought I wanted to be a physical therapist, which is so crazy. Wow. I was a pretty competitive soccer player, and I blew out my knee, and it looked like I wasn’t going to be able to continue to the next level. So I had it in my head, a way for me to stay connected to the idea of sports was to go into physical therapy, because I had to go through six or eight months or maybe a year of physical therapy to rehab my knee. Yeah, it was a pretty bad one. And so I went through that process of thinking, where do I fit? What is my purpose? What do I do? And I thought, okay, I’m going to go into physical therapy, because this has been kind of cool. And it’s not just sitting behind a desk.

[04:20] Brian Clapp:

And I get to be around people. I still connected to sports. And then I started doing the whole college biology, chemistry, double major, trying to get ready for that whole core curriculum that came in with going into physical therapy. And I was like, after my freshman year, I did fine. I mean, I had like a 3.4 GPA, something very above average, a little bit above average, whatever. And I thought, well, wait a second, I’m not really happy doing this. I don’t love it. I’m not thrilled. And so I felt very lost my sophomore year of college. And I remember going back home over like winter break and saying to my mom, I have no idea what I’m doing right now. I don’t think this is it for me. I’m 18 years old, 19 years old. And I don’t really have anything figured out for myself. And my mom says, when you’re not in school, all you think about and do is sports. You watch ESPN, you read stories, you read Sports Illustrated, you only think she’s like, you have to find something in there. So it kind of went on for me and I ended up going back to school, changing my major, getting into television production. And I knew I was kind of behind the eight ball. So I just started really aggressively doing internships and trying to learn specific skills and research the industry. And then I got hired. I got hired out of college at CNN Sports Illustrated, which is a brand new 24-hour sports news network, which was set to compete with ESPN. And it was amazing. I mean, that was like getting my master’s because I showed up on the ground the first day and there was 20 other kids like me, young men and young women who were starting out from ground level.

[05:35] Brian Clapp:

And then there was 150 other of the most seasoned professionals in the industry, producers at the top of their industry, the top anchors and reporters. And I’m there with like Nick Charles and Fred Hickman and Vince Cellini and Bob Lorenz and Laura Oakman and Inga Hamm and all these incredible anchors and reporters. And I’m like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And so we’re doing this thing as a sports news network. I was there for seven years. I was a production assistant, then I was an associate producer, then I was a producer working my way up just like everybody else does. And then I kind of determined that I wanted to get into the management side a little bit more. I wanted to get a little bit higher. Because I could have been a producer at CNN probably forever, but the road ahead of me was pretty blocked. And there was a lot of people there that were lifers and I wasn’t going to surpass them. So I recruited out to Fox Sports Northwest to be the news director out there. Spent about four years there. And that was a really cool experience because again, you go from being an individual contributor where you have to prepare for that day’s show. And that’s all you’re really focused on. And the next day you do it all over again. You know, you’re producing the next show. And then you get into being in management and you have people to worry about. You have budgets to worry about. You have planning for spring training. You have planning for NFL training camps and always looking ahead.

[06:41] Brian Clapp:

And it’s just a totally different scenario. And it blew my mind in a lot of ways, but I also loved it. You go from, and you know what this is like, you go from your only focus is what’s the latest news on Brett Favre or something like that. To then being like, this employee is complaining that their charity doesn’t go high enough and it’s hurting their backs. You know what I mean? It’s like totally different world. I’m getting a little further away from journalism. But after about four years, I left, I wanted to start my own thing. I just had this entrepreneurial dig in inside. I mean, this entrepreneurial side. And Fox at the time wasn’t doing a whole lot in the digital media side. They weren’t really investing in social media. They weren’t really investing in streaming. They didn’t really see that as the future. And I kind of did. So started my own site. Eventually that got purchased by my current employers, workinsports.com. I’ve been at workinsports.com. I’ve been at workinsports for the last seven years and have been purely focused on career development, professional development, helping other people get started in sports industry. And it’s not just based on my experience. It’s based on the hundreds of people that I’ve interviewed as part of our podcast.

[07:37] Brian Clapp:

People like you that are sharing advice. I still quote you all the time. One of my favorite things that you ever said was your resume has to be the greatest document you’ve ever created. You talked about that. You said that. And I’ve quoted that back in panels and sessions and speaker series across the country that I’ve been involved in. I’ll carry you back all the time because I think it’s so important to get that hammered in. But that’s where I kind of found my niche is that I’ve liked helping other people in the industry find their way and unlocking those keys to getting hired. That’s a long intro. I’m sorry, Don. I have a tendency to talk too much.

Non-Traditional Career Paths

[08:07] Don Costante:

No, I love that. I love asking that question though, because it really illustrates that there can be unique, non-traditional paths to getting to where you want to be, that there’s not just one way of doing it. Yeah. You really illustrated that. Okay. Now, as we begin our discussion on job seeking tactics, it’s important for me to note that I’m not an expert on resumes, cover letters, or other career development tactics. My opinions are solely based on 26 years of experience in the sports industry, hiring numerous people to fulfill different positions within my department. So Brian, that’s why you’re here. You’re the expert on this subject matter.

[08:43] Brian Clapp:

That makes you an expert, dude, just so you know, but go ahead. Let’s jump in for sure.

The Four Pillars of Getting Hired

[08:47] Don Costante:

All right, let’s do this. So when we talk about the beginning, what’s the first step anybody should take, whether they’re a recent graduate or otherwise, before starting their job search?

[08:57] Brian Clapp:

It’s a really good question. And what I try to tell people a lot is I visualize a house and that every house has essentially four pillars that are to hold up the roof, right? And so you go through this thought process and I like to do a lot of visualizations because it kind of helps me articulate or to understand something. I’m kind of a visual learner that way. And I tend to look at it this way, that there’s four major pillars to getting hired in pretty much any industry, but especially in the sports industry. And that is you need to have the right experience and the right skill set. You need to have a network that you’re growing and building and building these relationships. You need to have a cover letter, a resume and a personal brand that is standout or on point. And you need to be able to handle the entry process. If you have those things, if you have those things comfortably mastered, you’re in a really good position. So let’s start at the beginning a little bit. If you’re talking about somebody early on in their career as a job seeker, they’re in an acquisition phase, right? Initially, all you need to do and all you need to focus on is acquiring, acquiring skills, acquiring experience and starting to acquire people in your network.

[09:58] Brian Clapp:

People are like, oh, so what do I acquire? What do I do? Well, there’s techniques to it. And what you do is you have to figure out a little bit, at least who you want to be, like a direction you may have. And sometimes that fit will change. You know, you’re going to have changes and moves just like I did in my career, just like you have in your career. Most people have moments of change in their career. Same thing happens when you think you know who you want to be, right? You maybe start one direction, you end up a different one. But for right now, start to get a little bit of focus into who you think you want to be. And it could be inspired by a guest that they’ve heard on your podcast or on my podcast or something like that. Let’s just pretend and play this out for a little bit. You listen to a podcast, you the job seeker, you listen to a podcast and you hear someone who works in partnership activation. And you’re like, I’ve never heard of that before. What is that? You’ve listened to it. You’re like, that sounds really cool. Well, now the work is for you to do. You have to go through and start to research and understand what does it mean to work in this role?

[10:51] Brian Clapp:

What are the skills that they’re demanding? Job descriptions are like an open book test. They tell you everything they want. They might give you 10 skills that they’re looking for when they hire somebody in this role. Write them all down. Go look at 10 or 15 jobs. Write down those skills and then do a self-analysis and say, okay, I only have right now six of these skills. Well, now you’re in the acquisition phase. When you choose your college courses, when you choose your internships, when you choose your volunteer opportunities, or what you’re going to watch on YouTube, make it targeting those skills that you want to get so that you have the right experience and the right skill set to match up with what the industry needs and wants for this role. The information is out there. The question is, what are you going to do with it? And if you go six months down that path of saying, hey, partnership activation sounds really interesting to me, and you go six months down that path and you’re like, I don’t know if this is it. Just get back out there and do more research. Listen to more podcasts like yours, like mine. Learn about what people are doing out there.

[11:45] Brian Clapp:

Try out some things and try to acquire the skills that are in demand for those roles. At the same time, while you’re doing internships and those other things, be thinking about relationships and building those because that’s what you’re doing in the early phases of your job seeking path is you’re acquiring. You know, you’re acquiring skills, experience, and relationships. That’s what you got to focus on first.

Finding Your Niche in the Sports Industry

[12:04] Don Costante:

Now you talk about finding what you want to do. What advice do you give to those who say they want to work in sports, but they haven’t quite figured out what their niche or what their passion is going to be within the sports industry?

[12:14] Brian Clapp:

It is such a common question. Every week I get 10, 15, and I’m sure you do too, 10, 15, 20 people on LinkedIn that will request to connect and say, I love sports. I know everything about sports. I know who the 1974 ALMVP was. I know this stat. I know that stat. I can calculate more. I can do all these things. I read box scores all the time. What should I do for my career? And I feel like it’s such a personal decision that I can’t really guide people in that too much. Like I can give ideas and tactics, but it’s so hard. Like you probably get this all the time too. Like somebody saying, what should I do? It’s like, well, that’s a very personal decision, right? I mean, that’s, that’s literally like what’s at your core. And it’s hard to see inside somebody and know what that is. Right. But what I try to tell people a lot of times is the best thing you can do is research. You know, the best thing you can do is listen to the information that’s out there. Like while you’re walking to class, pop in a podcast and listen and see what’s out there. Do some research. Start looking at job descriptions. Start looking at job titles. Start looking at organizational structures.

[13:10] Brian Clapp:

If you start to do the research and understand what opportunities are out there and expose yourself to these different things and do internships, a lot of things will start to come in a clearer picture for you. For me, it was very clear. I wanted to work in the sports media. I love the visual medium. I loved highlights. I love storytelling. I loved all those things. So once I got to that clarity moment, it was like lean into it a hundred percent. Everybody’s a little bit different. What I think people have to do though, is that sports is not just a job. Sports is an industry. And every type of job is available within sports. So if you want to work as an accountant, you can find a job for a sports team in accounting. You know, you can work in finance or human relations, marketing, scouting, or GM, or event management, or whatever it may be. There’s so many different opportunities out there. The only thing you can do is start to expose yourself to what’s out there, do internships and gain experience. And one thing I like to tell people too, a lot of times is doing an internship and finding out you hate something is not a bad thing either. Right?

[14:04] Brian Clapp:

No, it’s a good thing. It is. I’ve had people that said, I went and did this internship with an NFL team because I always had this dream of working for an NFL team and I hated it. And they’re like, oh no, I’m so scared now. What do I do? And I said, that’s good. You figured out what you don’t want to do. Imagine if you had never done that internship. You never knew it. And you went and worked for a team and you’re 25 and you’re out of school and you’re working for this team and you hate it. It’s better to know that now so you can course correct. Oh yeah. You know, failures, making mistakes, having opportunities you don’t like. These are all part of the process and it’s okay. So don’t panic.

Job Shadowing and Informational Interviews

[14:33] Don Costante:

When I have people calling me, I give them that advice. I also talk to them a little bit about find out what you’re interested in and then reach out to different organizations. Start with your own athletic department with your university and see if you can go job shadow. And I know we’re in a pandemic now. I get it. But as things open up, see if you can go job shadow because real life experience, there’s no substitute for. And getting a chance to go there, you get exposed to their philosophy. Yeah. That’s so important. I mean, a lot of these young professionals have tangible experience, but we’re all visual learners and to be able to go and see and learn a philosophy because how I do it with the Royals is different than how the chiefs do it or supporting KC. It’s not right or wrong. It’s just different. So getting exposed to that. And I always get one of two reactions when people come and job shadow with me, it’s either heck no, I don’t want to do this. Or they look at me and say, you know what? I’m more energized than ever. And it gives them that clarification. As you said, before they plunge into it with two feet and realize that’s not what they want to do. So I totally agree with you.

[15:31] Brian Clapp:

I love that idea. And what I’d also add to that too is I think a lot of people in the sports industry right now are extremely sympathetic with young people who had their internships canceled. Oh, yeah. They’re in a tough position. I know a lot of people that I speak to and talk to are extremely sympathetic to that. So it’s a good time to do things like informational interviews as well, which seems very old school. But now with Zoom and being able to do that, what I try to tell people is it’s scary if you’re positioned as somebody reaching out to me to do an informational interview. It’s scary if it’s somebody that you don’t know and don’t set any parameters for the discussion because you’re all of a sudden thinking to yourself, this could be an hour commitment. You start to have these fears kind of come over like, I don’t have the time for it or whatever, but I want to help. So what I tell people is when you reach out for an informational interview, understand where that person is in their season because it could be sometimes you’re better than others. And just say, I wanted to have 15 minutes of your time. I just have a couple more questions to learn about the industry and find out if it’s something I want to pursue.

[16:32] Brian Clapp:

If you put some sort of a cap on it, say 15 minutes, I think people are more likely to say, yeah, I can spare 15 minutes to talk with you and give you some insight into what it’s like to do this particular job. And it’s not as powerful as a job shadow. Like you said, getting in there and being in there with you is much more powerful than a virtual informational interview. But it’s a good start to, if you can only do that, to do some informational interviews and start to learn firsthand what other people are doing in the industry.

[16:58] Don Costante:

No, I love that. I think the fact that you said Zoom, having that eye contact for 15 minutes, you have an opportunity to make a connection and you can leave a lasting impression on that potential hiring manager.

[17:08] Brian Clapp:

That’s exactly right. Yep.

Resume Construction

[17:09] Don Costante:

Let’s shift gears now into resumes. And I know this is one of those topics that if you ask 10 people for their opinions on how a resume should be constructed, you’ll get 10 different answers. Yes. Yes. That being said, I’m sure our conversation between you and I will probably be no exception, but having different points of view is okay. What’s important to those listening here today is that they take it all in. They decide what’s right for them and disregard the rest. So my first question for you pertains to the construction of a resume. The principles and construction of a resume that are being taught to students today have remained the same since I was in school 25 years ago. Yes, sir. The idea that a resume should not exceed one page and only provide an edited version of experience just enough to provoke a hiring manager to call and want to learn more about you. What are your thoughts on this approach?

[17:58] Brian Clapp:

Okay. So first off, I’m 100% with you. It’s funny that we might be totally in lockstep on this, you know, having different point of view. But I will say this. I did a session a week or two ago at Penn State where we had this exact conversation about resumes. And I started out with the first thing they said to me was almost exactly what you just said. Everybody’s going to have, it’s a subjective thing. Resumes are subjective. Everybody has different things that they gravitate towards. Everybody has different expectations because it’s human most of the time. Not always, but it’s a human a lot of times looking at your resume. And they’re going to see things differently. So I try to emphasize what we’re talking about and what you’re talking about are best practices, right? It’s never going to be completely uniform and hit on the perfect resume that works for everybody. That’s never going to happen. But we can give you best practices, best techniques. And it’s absolutely one page. It’s funny. I have a friend, Melissa, who was the director of social media for the MLS, worked with the Pittsburgh Penguins, worked with the New York Jets, worked with the Tacoma Rainiers and one of their teams. She worked with five teams.

[18:56] Brian Clapp:

She’s like 10, 15 years into her career. She has all these accolades, metrics, awards, and all sorts of things. And her resume is one page. And I use her resume to show other people. I use her resume to show in these sessions and say, if she can make her resume with 15 years experience working with five different professional sports teams in major, major, major roles, if she can make her resume one page, I do not want to hear from another 23 year old person that’s done two internships and say that they can’t make it one page. You can. Everybody out there, make your resume one page. Every person in hiring wants that. Condense and be willing to be flexible. Don’t have just one version of your resume. Getting a job is work. It really is. It is hard work. And you have to make sure you cater your resume to the job you’re applying for. And I’m sure we’ll get deeper into that. But there are a lot of best principles that go into it.

One Page or a True Reflection of Experience?

[19:47] Don Costante:

You know, as you talk about that, I think this is one area where I do have a different perspective. Oh, good. I’m one of those managers that all of the resumes, when they come in, they don’t go to my HR person. They come to me because I’m going to have a better idea. For what you need. As to what I need and what I’m looking for. And I can tell you that when I look at resumes, one of the things that I’m most concerned about, and I think it’s a disadvantage for young people when they’re coming out, when they’re being taught to edit down their resumes, they eliminate things that are potentially trigger points. They’re picking and choosing what they deem to be important based on the job description that they’re looking at. And a lot of times they choose wrong. And I think that in the case of like Melissa, as you mentioned, that’s phenomenal that she’s able to condense that. But I think in that decision of condensing, there were things that she probably had to make a decision on at some point to say, I’m not going to put that in there because I feel like I have enough. But that just might be something that could have been a trigger point for somebody to actually want to pull that resume and talk to her. And the thing about it, you know, I talk about this all the time when I was in the NBA, Major League Baseball.

[20:51] Don Costante:

We don’t not hire somebody because their resume is two pages. No, we don’t hire them because they don’t articulate the skill set within their resume. I’ve seen some really great one page resumes. Yeah, I guess where I’m trying to go is I’m one that it really needs to be more of a true reflection of their work history. I encourage kids, if you’ve done the work to make sure to give a true reflection of it and throw out the idea of length. It’s not about length. It’s about whatever your experience bears. And I’ll give you an example. If I were to put a position out there now for an internship and let’s assume I have 1000 college seniors applying for this position. If they all hold true to the construction of a resume and how they’re being taught, that means I’m going to get 1000 identical one page resumes with a varying degree of experience. And in today’s world, I argue that we’re not looking for conformity. We’re looking for people who stand out, people who can scream off their resume that not only can they do the job, but here’s what I can do for you. And I think that when they get this mindset that they’re supposed to edit down and pick and choose what they think is important, a lot of times I think they choose wrong. That’s kind of the mindset that I’ve kind of shaped over the years.

[21:58] Brian Clapp:

Yeah, no, I don’t disagree with the idea of you have a lot of experiences and you have a lot of valuable skills. Don’t feel like you can’t include them. I’m saying essentially I see a lot of resumes that’ll be over a page and I look at them and say this didn’t need to be over a page. No question. And there’s a problem a lot of times with editing. There’s a problem a lot of times with highlighting what’s most important versus just something that you did. There’s repetition. There’s repeating things from role to role. It’s like I’ll see something where a marketing coordinator and then it became a senior marketing coordinator or whatever. Right. So there’s a small increase and yet they repeat a bullet point in each one because they did it for both roles. And I’m like, no, now you’re being redundant. So there’s a lot of techniques in there that people are expanding the length of their resume as a feeling that is important. I will tell you though, and this is again where we differ a little bit, but I was going to say this. A lot of people, if you’re applying for a job that requires graphic design or presentation, it’s got to look the part. Right. And then on top of that though, I tend to be when I’m looking at resumes, I’m all about the substance.

[22:59] Brian Clapp:

I’m all about the substance. I don’t care one bit about the style. I don’t care one bit about the style. I don’t care one bit about the formatting. I don’t care about the formatting. I want to learn what this person knows can do, how they’re going to change our organization for the better. And I can’t get that from the fancy formatting that does nothing for me. But if I was applying for a job, like it was graphic design or if it was something in presentation, then yeah, you got to, you got to show off your abilities a little bit. So I can understand that completely too. So, you know, it just varies a lot.

Customizing Your Resume for Each Job

[23:25] Don Costante:

No question. You had mentioned multiple versions. How many versions of a resume should you have?

[23:30] Brian Clapp:

Okay. So here’s where I get people hating me because I spell it out this way because again, it becomes work. So I like it to football. Okay. So a team will use a chiefs, even though I’m from Boston. So I hate the chiefs, but you’re in Kansas city. So I have to play to the host. I love it. So, okay. They have a base defense, right? They have a base defense. They practice it all the time. They know exactly how to run this defense. They operate it constantly. They practice it every week. But then for every single opponent that they have, they make changes. They change the blitz package. They change the defense. They change things around. They give it a different look based on their opponents. So that’s one. Have your base resume. It is your best possible version. But most recruiters spend between six and 20 seconds looking at your resume. So you have to, when you’re applying for a job, you have to make sure you are putting in all those best facts and highlighting them and top loading them. So in one version of your resume, something with a bullet point four, you might move up to bullet point one. I’m not saying you’re making wholesale changes. You’re just making sure all those things get noticed on one version on your base resume. You may never have included that, you know, Photoshop because it’s a skill that wasn’t applicable to a job. But then you see that this job really would love you to know Photoshop. So you’re adding that in.

[24:45] Brian Clapp:

You have to take this as an effort like a sport like you are competing for this job and you want to make sure this version of a resume is really, really applicable to the job that you’re applying for and the skills you have for that role. I was just speaking last week with John Ferguson, who’s the VP of people and culture for monumental sports, which is the Wizards, Capitals, Mystics. It’s their whole ownership group. Right. And he was saying the exact same thing. He’s like, I don’t get to spend tons of time on each resume. I need to know because we’re filtering a lot too. We’ll get a thousand applicants for a job. We might do a filter that says, find me people that have these 10 skills or these five skills, these six skills, and that you have to make sure that those skills are showing in your resume. So you need to make sure that your best version of your resume that you’re applying for this job matches up. What he also said, which I think is really insightful and everybody needs to know, is if you look at a job and it lists 10 skills you need to have, if you have six of them, it’s worth applying for. You’re close enough.

[25:41] Brian Clapp:

You don’t have to have all 10. That is their wish list. That is their dream scenario. If I find somebody that has all 10 of these skills, it’s perfect. If the dream come true, I’m going to hire them on the spot. But if you have six of them and you have enough other skills that are interesting and they might be intrigued by, and you can sell yourself in your cover letter a little bit and tell me a bit of a story about you. And I get to know you a little bit personality wise. You at least get a call back, maybe for a phone interview, maybe for a Zoom interview, and then you can really impress them with who you are. What we found, and John and I both agreed on this, was that a lot of young women who are applying for jobs assume they need to have all 10 of the skills there. And a lot of young men that are applying for jobs assume if they have two of the skills, that’s good enough. And it really is a gender decision that a lot of young women tend to be extremely particular and say, they wanted these 10 skills. I only have nine. I’m not going to apply. And guys are the exact opposite. They’re like, I got two. That’s probably good enough. And so it’s just funny that way.

[26:39] Brian Clapp:

What I tell everyone, doesn’t matter what gender, if you have six, you’re in the ballgame. Get out there. Because really the goal here is to be in the consideration set, right? Absolutely. I’m not saying every person is going to be perfect for the role. You want to be somebody that’s worth considering. And if you’re worth considering, that means you get on the phone with somebody, you get a phone interview, you get a video interview, you get something. And if you get that something, that’s a chance. It’s a chance to prove yourself. And that’s all you’re looking for, right?

Applicant Tracking Systems

[27:03] Don Costante:

Yeah, no question. When you were talking about multiple resumes, I was a little bit worried. But after listening to you, I definitely agree with what you’re saying. I think that there is another side of it too. In addition to the resume that you have, a lot of people, we mentioned we don’t care about formatting. It is about substance. But if they do these, you know, really decorative or outlandish formatting, people got to understand if you’re going to be submitting that online, that’s going to most likely go through an application tracking system, which is going to mess all that up and it’s not going to go well for you.

[27:30] Brian Clapp:

100%. It’s funny. I forgot to mention that part because that is extremely vital. The part that people usually end up getting mad at me at is because then after saying that, well, you need to customize your resume for the job. I tell them, oh, yeah, and by the way, you have to have a whole nother version. Yeah, you have to have a whole nother version that’s for applicant tracking systems. Because if you apply for a job online, chances are it’s going into an applicant tracking system. And as you said, the first thing the computer system does is strip out the formatting. And so if you have columns where things are your information displayed, you know, in a left column and then a right column, the computer system reads left to right, left to right, left to right. And so it jumbles your sentences and bullet points and information based on left to right, not up and down through columns. And so it gets very confusing for the system to understand you. And then when it gets handed over to a human, when they’re not seeing that original version, it still looks like a jumbled mess because they get a parsed version.

[28:21] Brian Clapp:

So you have to make a version of your resume that’s stripped down. So there’s really three versions, your base resume, the resume that you adjust for the role you’re applying to, and then a version of that that is for applying online for jobs so that you can have the best version of yourself come through on substance. And that beautifully formatted pretty one is great if somebody’s requesting your resume by email, if you’re at a career fair and you want to hand it to somebody, if you’re in any situation where you can deliver a PDF to somebody, that’s all great. But if it’s going into a computer system, it needs to be stripped down of all that and just look like an old school, boring, left to right resume.

Resume Must-Haves

[28:56] Don Costante:

Great advice. Now, I realize resumes are subjective, but what do you believe to be the proper construction of a resume? I mean, what are Brian Clapp’s must-haves for a resume to appeal to a hiring manager?

[29:08] Brian Clapp:

So there’s two major things for me. The third thing I always talk about is the various versions, which we just covered. So I’ll just get into the other two. Right. I’m a big metrics guy. I like data. I’m a writer by trade, right? And I speak all the time. And I know what it’s like when somebody just uses powerful verbs, powerful adjectives, puffery, oversells themselves, dramatizes what they’ve accomplished. I want to see data. I want to see data. I don’t want to see fancy verbs or anything like that. I want to see data. And every job has data associated with it. It does. If you’ve increased ratings, if you’ve lowered expenses, if you’ve increased Twitter followers, if you’ve increased open rates on emails, if you’ve decreased spending, there’s always ways to articulate what you’ve accomplished with data. And that becomes real. That becomes inarguable. And I did a side-by-side of resumes one time where somebody worked in minor league baseball in sales. And then there was another person who did sales of, it wasn’t vacuum cleaners, but it was something like that. It was something very non-glamorous.

Using Data and Metrics

[30:07] Brian Clapp:

And this person, it might have been like solar panels, something like that. The person that sold solar panels had tons of data on their resume, that they beat their quotas by this percentage. They beat hustle metrics by this percentage, and that they had more up-on calls made, and they did this, and they did that. And it was all these things you read, and you felt like, all right, this person’s aggressive. They know how to get after it, and I like what they have to say. The other person who actually had sports experience, everything was just a sentence. Like, I made phone calls and talked to clients. I had lunch meetings and talked to clients. I closed deals, and it just didn’t sell them. And so even though this one person had sports, quote-unquote, experience, and the other person didn’t, I would have hired the person that had no sports experience because their resume proved something through data, and that spoke to me. The other thing, something that is probably not popular and is something that may be just isolated to me, but I cannot stand, cannot stand the objective or mission statements.

Objective Statements and Resume Substance

[31:01] Brian Clapp:

It’s such a waste of space. I’m in total agreement with you. Oh, great. Okay, good. Here’s the deal. Most people have no idea how to write them. They write something that says something like, I want to pursue a career that aligns with my college major in marketing and my experience as an intern at this place. And it’s like, that’s great. That’s what you want. What about me? I’m the one hiring. What do I need? What can you do for me? I’m not trying to sound callous, but that’s what hiring is about. I’m hiring somebody that can change in our organization. You telling me that you want to have something that lines up with your major in a career that excites you and makes you happy each day doesn’t make me want to hire you. That’s great. I’m assuming that you want that because you applied for this job, right? You haven’t added anything into the conversation. You haven’t told me anything about yourself. You haven’t started to tell me anything about your skills. I don’t know anything about you. It was a total waste of space. I skip over them. If I see them, I don’t even read them anymore because I’m afraid it’s going to make me not like the person.

[31:53] Brian Clapp:

I don’t either. They got to understand experience is number one. I mean, that’s what I’m looking for. As you mentioned, it’s all about substance. So that’s the first thing at the top, not mission statement or objective. Right. Because like you, I just bypass that. I don’t know if you do it this way, but okay. So I was the news director of Fox Sports Northwest. So we’re the number eight market in the nation. If I get resumes in, the first thing I’m doing is I’m scanning for where is this person worked. I’m not even looking at titles that much. I want to see, have they had experience in a big market that they can handle our workflow? Evaluate that first and then go deeper. So if they had experience at ESPN or Big Ten Network or some other major network, they worked in New York City or wherever. I was like, okay, this person is ready for what we do. Well, now let’s see what they’ve done. So that was like my first filter phase. You, same thing. You’re working for the Royals. I’m not going to hire somebody that’s never lived in any kind of pressure cooker situation. Right. You want to see if they’ve got some experience in a high pressure situation that can handle this.

[32:46] Brian Clapp:

And so a lot of times you’re looking at that first. I want to see experience. I want to see experience high and mighty top line on the resume.

[32:52] Don Costante:

What’s next though? Outside of experience. What’s the next category? What are some of the categories that make up the construction of a resume that should be in there?

[33:00] Brian Clapp:

I guess people do skills profiles. I think that’s better when it’s working contextually. And I never really liked to see just a list of things you can do. I guess that works if it doesn’t fit into the other places in your resume. You just want to put a bunch of software and things that you’re familiar with. That can be okay. I don’t love it. It feels like fluff. Basically experience. Yeah. It’s like I’d rather see you tell me. Just give me the experience. Tell me how you did it and what you used it for or how it helps you. Yeah. I’d rather see it like in context. Education at certain points becomes less relevant. Like I don’t even know if I have it on my resume anymore. Other than that, I did graduate. I did go to college, I guess. Other than that though, it’s all like I have my GPA. I mean, it’s completely irrelevant after a while. For me, it’s experience. And I’d even say for young people too, don’t get too hung up on chronological. And this is somewhat controversial too, but I give this example sometimes. Let’s say your junior year of college, in the summer before your junior year,

[33:51] Brian Clapp:

you interned with the Indianapolis Colts. And then during the school year, because you needed to make some money, you worked at the mall or something like that, or you delivered pizzas. You don’t have to put that you delivered the pizzas first on your resume. Put the Colts first. It doesn’t have to be in perfect order chronologically. A lot of us that are in hiring look at it and say, we know you’re a college student. We’re not looking for this to be perfectly contiguous. Like you went from this to this, to this, to this, to this. Later in your career, you’ll have to. People will ask you if you have gaps in your resume. You know, you want to be in chronological order. But when you first start out, highlight the best stuff you’ve done. I want to see that front and center best you can. And I’m less worried about the dates associated with everything. That’s just me though, maybe. I just don’t want it to be buried. If your first impression is, I had this, I was recently hiring a position and somebody sent me their resume. And the first position was they did something, wasn’t delivering pizzas, but it was something akin to that.

[34:40] Brian Clapp:

It was something like they worked in their dad’s law office. And then like the third thing on there was that they worked for an entire school year with the Tampa Bay Lightning in sales. And I’m like, that’s more important. Right. If I had seen the first thing and thought this person is in a match and moved on, I’d never even realize they worked at the Lightning. Yeah. I’d rather see that higher up in the early stages of a resume.

Interests and Transferable Skills

[34:57] Don Costante:

What about at the end? Should a person include personal information such as like interest and hobbies, in your opinion?

[35:04] Brian Clapp:

It’s really interesting. I never thought so, but I’ve talked to four hiring managers lately that said they looked through so many resumes that they’d love to see something that makes somebody a little bit different. And so they told me that they had one person that put in there that they had a interest in falconry and that they were training falcons legitimately. Like really, they weren’t just making it up either. And they were like, okay, the falcon guy, I want to interview them. And it was just funny. Like I never even thought of that. I never even had considered that, but I’ve heard it now on four different occasions where people have said, giving me something that makes you stand out for a different reason is kind of cool. And maybe there’s a way to work that in your cover letter too. Yeah. But if not, I mean, hey, I guess it doesn’t hurt, you know, like what other interests, as long as they’re actually interesting. No, absolutely. I think it just gives an employer an idea about who that person is as an individual. Yeah. Most importantly, are the activities in which you’re actively involved in, are they demonstrating

[35:57] Brian Clapp:

that you were able to develop and demonstrate your transferable skills, such as leadership, event organization, financial management. Totally agree. But people need to be specific about what they did while participating in these activities and avoid that laundry list of just organizations. Cause that’s what ends up happening at the end. They just list a bunch of organizations. It doesn’t mean anything. Exactly right. Exactly right. Yep. Okay.

Work Samples and Portfolios

[36:19] Don Costante:

Let’s move on to another question. What’s your view on people providing unsolicited work examples or portfolios with a resume?

[36:27] Brian Clapp:

I like it. I was talking with Maylin Vu, who is the Cleveland Indians Director of Talent Acquisition. And she said, you know, just like you, this is the problem I have. I do so many of these podcast interviews or like I interview so many people that there’s so many things running around in my head that experts have said that I always just spit them out whenever I’m talking to somebody else. But Maylin was always said like, and it sticks with me, that your resume is two-dimensional. It’s just a sheet of paper. It doesn’t tell me the essence of who you are. So anytime that you can expand upon that story and let me know more about you, which gets into, like you said, with the other interest things, but also seeing some of your work products, seeing some of the things you’ve done. Brian Kelly’s what CMO of the Vegas Golden Knights. He told me he got a resume one time where the person had done an entire research report, included along with it, on why Vegas should get involved in having their own esports team. And it had data associated with it, it had tables associated with it, and all his research.

[37:19] Brian Clapp:

And he said, hire the person on the spot. I knew that they were special. I talked to Louis Polis, who works for the Philadelphia Phillies in quantitative research and analysis, and something that was way over my head. It was way smarter than me. But anyway, he told me about how when he was in college, he sent a research report to every Division I baseball team, doing a full-on quantitative analysis of their team to explain where they could be better and how he could help them. And it helped him get his first job working at UAB for the Division I baseball team. So sometimes going that little bit extra, if you’ve got it in you, if you’ve got something special that you can bring to the table, going that little bit extra and pushing it out there can really make the difference.

Technology and the Future of Hiring

[37:57] Don Costante:

How do you see technology affecting resumes or the way job seekers are going to communicate their abilities in the future to hiring managers?

[38:05] Brian Clapp:

Yeah, the big thing is, like you said, the applicant tracking systems and the virtual interviews, they’re taking away a lot of the personal touch of it, which I think is hard. I don’t love that stuff. It’s a reality. It’s something we all have to adjust to. We can’t just throw a temper tantrum and say, no, I don’t like it. You know, it’s like, no, it’s here. It exists. You have to adjust to it. But I don’t like taking the personal part out of it. Hiring should be very personal. And the problem is there’s so many people applying. They have to go through some processes to get it dialed in. And so like you said, you like to go through the resumes yourself because you know the rules better than anybody else does. I do. And I think that’s great. And I love to hear that because you want somebody to have that personal touch to it. Because I don’t know, I feel like hiring is the most important thing you do as a manager because it can fundamentally change your organization. Every role. It’s an entry-level role or a high-level role. You bring somebody in who’s great, they fundamentally make a change.

[38:56] Brian Clapp:

You bring somebody in who’s terrible, they fundamentally make a change, right? I mean, these things affect you for a long time. Hiring is important. It needs to focus and it needs to personal touch. Unfortunately, we’re heading into a world where things are becoming more and more automated. And I don’t even mean Zoom interviews because those are great. I have no problem with those. I mean the virtual interviews that I do not love that are you show up for a computer screen and you get asked a question and you record your answer in a minute. You don’t have a chance to edit it. You get asked a question. You get 30 seconds to think about it. Then it starts recording. It records your answer for one minute, then it stops. It’s like, oh, I stumbled or I didn’t say this right or I meant to say that. It’s like, you don’t talk to a person. You’re talking to your webcam and then it’s over. It’s done. And it’s like, oh my gosh, I hate that. I hate that system. But it’s growing. It’s happening more and more and more and more and more. We’ll continue to. It’s too bad, but that’s the reality we’re working in.

[39:44] Brian Clapp:

So what do we do then? And I think with the, everybody’s always trying to give hacks to beat applicant tracking systems. Forget that stuff. Don’t try to hack your way into a job. Get the right experience that lines up with the industry you want to get into. Make yourself, while in college, make yourself match the market and the demands of the marketplace. I got my first job, forgetting all the technology stuff. I got my first job out of college. Hired at CNN Sports Illustrated. A huge network. When most people start out in Pocatello, Idaho, I started one of the largest networks there is because I had a very specific skill that they needed. At the time, nonlinear editing was becoming the trend. And they were investing in nonlinear editing. They were changing over their entire editing system. And I learned that skill in college and on internships. And because I had that on my resume, I got noticed and I got hired. That was it. That’s the reason I got my first phone interview. And then the rest was up to me. I had to prove it with my personality, my charisma, my soft skills, leadership, all those other things.

[40:38] Brian Clapp:

And I had to pass a sports quiz, all those kind of things. But the reason I got noticed because I had the right skill. And I talked to hiring managers all the time about this. Forget about trying to beat these systems. Get the right skills that they’re looking for. And you’ll get noticed. If you get noticed, then you can do all the other great things and make it such a personal experience. But the first thing you got to do is get noticed. And the way you do that is with skills. To me, I hate to sound like an old man who’s like, get off my lawn. But some of these systems that are just depersonalizing the whole experience just drive me insane.

[41:08] Don Costante:

When you were mentioning that I like to look at my own applications, the reason being, this is a true story. Two of the best hires I’ve ever had, one was an accounting major. Yeah. One was a journalist. If they had gone through HR, they had no practical experience whatsoever. But what they did have is a skill set that was specific to what I was looking for that accomplished the goals and objectives of that job. Meaning that the accountant was somebody who paid attention to detail. They dotted the I’s and crossed the T’s. The journalist was somebody who was a great storyteller. And both of those ended up being great hires. They both had passions for being in sports. They just took a different path in school, ended up not liking it in the corporate world, and then transitioned those skills into a position in the sports world. And like I said, the best. But that would have never been seen, I think, by most HR directors. So that’s why I like to review these resumes of my own.

[42:00] Brian Clapp:

I couldn’t agree with you more. I love to hear you saying that.

Websites and Personal Branding

[42:02] Don Costante:

As far as technology, what’s your thought on creating your own website and putting that portfolio out there and sharing that? Is that something people should be putting time into?

[42:12] Brian Clapp:

Absolutely. Your personal brand, seriously. Your personal brand isn’t like your website, doing some things like that, having a portfolio online, all ties into your personal brand. But even more than that, literally, your personal brand starts every time you come in contact with somebody in the industry. Personal branding. Everybody always thinks personal branding is like, oh, my social media profiles and do I have a website? And what does my LinkedIn look like? Those are all important. Absolutely. But really, my brand has started to be established on my first internship when I was around other people and I started to create a name for myself. Those interactions are part of your personal brand that are super powerful because, as you know, the sports world is really small. Really small. Like we know each other. Like I guarantee, Don, you and I know people. Oh, you know him? I know him. Yeah, of course. You know, like it’s a small world. And so my point in that is having a website, absolutely, and put it on your resume. Their resume used to be name and then like their full street address and phone numbers or like that.

[43:09] Brian Clapp:

I would much rather have somebody say name, LinkedIn profile link, link to their website and their phone number and their email. Right? You don’t need your street address or anything like that. Right. Give me your email address. And I guess it matters for, you know, relocation purposes or whatever, but we’ll get there. Right? Like just start out with your resume. Give me your name. Give me your website. Give me your LinkedIn profile. Give me your email address, phone number. Those are the detailed points you need. And if they can go to your personal website and learn more about you, just make sure it looks good. Just make sure you keep up to date on it. Make sure it looks professional. It sells you in the right manner because it’s just another way for them to get to know you. And I think those can be powerful tools to help continue that story. Like you said, a lot of times it’s about storytelling. Your resume is one part of your story. Yeah. What else can you tell me on your resume? What else can you tell me outside of your resume? We’ll do it on your website. It’s a great way to pivot people that way.

Social Media and Your Professional Brand

[43:54] Don Costante:

Is there a specific strategy that you would recommend in terms of how job seekers, should you utilize their social media?

[44:00] Brian Clapp:

I mean, it’s such a tricky one. I tend to be, you see so many people tripping over themselves with their social media accounts with this desire to be the cleverest person in the world. Absolutely. Don’t try to be too cute. People try to be too cute and they get themselves in trouble. And so I’m not saying you have to be like super professional and dialed in all the time. But just think about the bigger picture of what you’re saying and what you’re doing. If you expose yourself to be some sort of an idiot, that’s going to come back to hurt you. It has. It has done it to thousands of people out there. Here’s the thing. Here’s the silent effect of social media. I get a resume and I’m looking at it before I start to decide whether I’m going to do a callback and do a phone interview. I go to their social media accounts. And if I look through it and see things that are objectionable, I don’t call them. So you don’t know necessarily that it was your social media profile and your behavior out on the internet that got you out of a job consideration, but it did. But you might not even know it.

[44:56] Brian Clapp:

You might not even realize that that’s what’s happening, but it could very well be because you’re being judged on your public information out there. If you’re putting out public things, you better believe recruiters and hiring managers are looking at them. And here’s the other thing that people need to remember. Everybody has a boss. So if I’m hiring for a role, let’s say I’m the news director still at Fox Sports Northwest and I’m hiring somebody to be a producer. Eventually, as I go through the process, I have to bring that person in front of my boss. I have to say, this is the person that I’ve determined is right for this role. And that last person, my boss is going to sign off on them and at least have somewhat of a checkpoint on it and have their opinion on it. I’m not going to bring someone to them that’s going to make me look stupid, right? I need to feel like this person is responsible, has proper behavior, can handle themselves in the room, all those kinds of things, or else you’re going to make me look bad. I don’t want to look bad, right? So if I see things that are questionable on your social media, if I see things where you’re

[45:54] Brian Clapp:

like spelling things wrong on your own cover letter or on your resume or whatever other materials you have, that shows me you have a lack of attention to detail. It shows me that you’re going to probably backfire on me. And you might not even know it. You might not know that’s why I didn’t choose you. You might email me afterwards and be like, oh, I thought we really hit it off. Why didn’t I get the job? I might not be able to respond to you because HR won’t let me, right? They don’t want me to have those conversations. They don’t want me to follow people because it could get us in trouble. So you just don’t even hear anything. You don’t realize you’re missing out on opportunities because of the stupid things you said on social media, but you are. So just be smart about the way you present yourself. Your brand is all you have. Like we’ve always said, you and I are from the same general era and everybody always said, really have people to trust you or believe in you. Your word is your badge, right? Your word is their most important thing. Now it’s like your brand is just as much in alignment with that.

[46:42] Brian Clapp:

If you have a poor brand, it’s going to hurt you. Oh yeah. I was talking to Rob Albarino, who used to be with the 49ers. He said something that really stuck out to me when he was addressing the players. He basically told them, say it, you forget it. Post it, you’ll regret it. I too look at social media. Everybody does. And that’s just a part of life now. It sure is. And you can’t avoid it. So just be smart about it.

Applying Strategically

[47:04] Don Costante:

Please take a moment and talk about why job seekers need to be smart and tactical. With the jobs they apply for versus just applying for everything and anything that’s out there. Why is it important to only apply for the jobs that you’re qualified for and that you’re actually interested in?

[47:19] Brian Clapp:

It’s a really great question. As a matter of fact, you hit on the two key words right there. We hear from employers all the time. So work in sports. We’ve been the number one job board for the sports ministry for the last 20 years. So we talk to employers constantly. And what they tell us is their biggest struggle is we need people who are qualified to do the job and interested in that particular job. And what I mean by that is not just interested in working for our team, not just interested in being a fan to the nth degree, right? Interested in that particular job. And they say that’s the big struggle. They’ll get thousands of resumes, like you said, and 10% will actually be qualified to do the job. Now, as you and I have both articulated, there’s a lot of people who aren’t necessarily classically trained to do the job that could be really good for it. So it’s on a hard and fast rule that you have to be 100% qualified for a role, but you need to have some transferable skills. And it needs to be something that tracks back to that. And here’s why. For one, teams don’t really like, and you know this better than anybody, teams don’t always like to hire people who are just really big fans.

[48:17] Brian Clapp:

Because fans are distracted. Fans don’t focus on the job. They’re focused on everything else going on around them and the excitement in front of them. Well, when you’re working a business, because the Kansas City Royals are a business, right? There are jobs that need to be done on game day and in between and amongst the athletes and whatever else. They don’t want fans hanging around. That’s just not what they want. When I worked in the sports media, the same thing. Somebody comes in, your skill and you’ll come in. Joe Montana comes in. Whoever comes in, you’re not a fan. You’re not asking for autographs. You have a job to do, right? So most companies, especially in sports, are very reticent about hiring fans. So you don’t want to just be throwing your resume out there for every single job that becomes available because what that says to the team is or to any other organization is they’re a fan. They just want to work for us. What they want are people who really want this job. And I’ll tell you, I’ll add one more later to this. If you are just applying for every single job that comes out for a team that you really want to work for, you really want to work for the Tennessee Titans, you’re applying for every single job that they have that comes out.

[49:14] Brian Clapp:

Any hiring manager is going to look at that and say, okay, so what do they really want to be? Because if I hire them for this role, and let’s say I’m interested in them and I hire them for this role, are they going to be looking over at every other opening that opens up within the business? Are they just looking at this like a way to get their foot in the door so they can move on to something else in the organization? If so, that means I have to backfill this position almost right away and they’re not going to be that committed to it. That seems like more work to me. I’d rather hire somebody else. And I’m playing this dialogue out, but this is what happens all the time. If people are just applying for every job that comes available, the teams are tracking this. That’s what the applicant tracking systems are for. Yeah, they’re seeing how many times you’ve applied. Oh my God, they know right away. They know like this person’s applied for 16 jobs in the last year with our organization. It’s like, okay, they’re just a fan and they just want to get their foot in the door and they want to get some free merch, you know, and all that kind of stuff.

[50:00] Brian Clapp:

They’re not serious about this role. Employers want somebody that’s committed to that role. They want to do that job. They’ve shown the skills that line up or whatever, and they have an aptitude for it and they have a desire to lean into it and to grow there. I tell you, hiring is hard. You know this? Hiring is hard. You’re fearful you’re going to hire the wrong person. Hiring the wrong person means you’ve got another three months of work ahead of you to hire the right person afterwards. It just is a big problem. You know, you have to be able to feel like you’re hiring the right person. They’re going to stick it out and everything’s going to work out beautifully for your team because if it doesn’t, that’s a problem. And so getting somebody who is just applying for every single job and isn’t really serious about this particular one is a huge red flag. So apply for jobs you are qualified and interested in. Not teams that you’re interested in, jobs that you are qualified and interested in. And you have a much better chance of having some magic happen.

The Biggest Resume Mistakes

[50:50] Don Costante:

Now, this next question, I know that we’ve identified a few mistakes, but for you, Brian, what are the three biggest mistakes people make when it comes to their resumes?

[51:00] Brian Clapp:

Right. So the biggest one, seriously, the biggest one is grammar and punctuation. Isn’t that the truth? I am not the AP style guy. I don’t live by those kind of books or metrics or anything of that nature. I’m not a super, super exacting. I think, you know, tone can be different from person to person. So I don’t get too harped up on some of those minor, minor details. But there is a right way and a wrong way to write and to punctuate. And I’m telling you, if I see something that is clearly sloppy, it tells me this person is going to be a problem and I’m going to have a difficulty with them. We have to be double checking their work and watching over them. And it’s like hiring somebody for a social media role. Well, OK, let’s say you’re with the Royals and you’re hiring somebody to be a social media coordinator and they’re going to manage our Twitter account, blah, blah, blah. And they’re going to go out and they’re going to publish some tweet that’s going to be spelled wrong. And then everybody’s going to make the Twitter account the laughingstock and be like, oh, look at that mistake, fool.

[51:48] Brian Clapp:

You know, that’s what happens. You can’t have sloppy materials. You can’t have spelling mistakes. You can’t have grammar mistakes. You’ve got to really be super, super detailed on that. I don’t like fluff stuff. I don’t like colored paper or patterned paper with a background. I had somebody send me one resume one time where it was formatted into a bikini. I am kidding you not. What? I don’t know why. It made no sense. It had no connection to the job. They thought it would make their resume stand out of the pile. I was at a conference one time and somebody came up to me and they’re like, in their 40s, I want to say, and they had gone back to get their master’s. And they were talking to me. I was like, oh, congratulations. That’s awesome. That’s really cool that you went back to improve yourself and whatever. And they’re like, yeah, I’m really worried about being discriminated against for my age. I’m like, dude, you’re in your 40s. And I’m like, you’re that old. Anyway, they were like, I’m really worried about being discriminated against. So I made my resume look a little different. They showed it to me.

[52:34] Brian Clapp:

And it was formatted in a way that looked like a referee’s uniform. What? And I looked at them. I didn’t look at any of the substance. And I looked at them and I said, no, just don’t. Just don’t. Oh, my gosh. Because if you’re going to get recognized, you’re going to get recognized for the wrong reasons now. Right? They’re going to be laughing about you, not like excited by you. So I’m like, please stick to substance. Please. And the other big one that I get, and this actually probably relates more to cover letters and the resume themselves, is cover letters are this huge missed opportunity. Most people take their resume and write it in a paragraph form and think that’s a cover letter. And that’s a huge missed opportunity. I hear all the time people are like, oh, recruiters don’t read cover letters anymore. And that’s bull. Like, they read cover letters. They just don’t like bad ones. And a lot of people do really, really bad ones. I can read your resume. You don’t need to put it in paragraph form for me. Just go through your entire career there. Like, give me something more. I’ll tell you this real quick.

[53:24] Brian Clapp:

I have somebody applying to be an anchor with our station. I had their demo reel and I had their resume. So I had a paper resume. And this is how I would watch. I’d have their paper resume and then I’d watch their YouTube clip or I’d watch their, you know, DVD they’d send me or whatever it was. And this person, their name is spelled differently on their resume and on their demo reel. I’m like, who are you? That’s crazy. I don’t know who you are. You can’t even spell your name right. That’s a problem. That’s a problem. That’s a bummer.

Resume Pet Peeves

[53:46] Don Costante:

In addition to these mistakes, what are your resume pet peeves?

[53:49] Brian Clapp:

You know, a lot of it is just being overly hammered on applying to jobs you’re not qualified for. Like, that kind of always bothered me. Like somebody applying to be a reporter or an anchor and they’ve never done that work before. Or they’re applying to be in sales and they’ve never sold anything. That really drives me crazy. It’s like, you have a skill set. I’m sure. This isn’t it. So why are you applying for this job and wasting my time? So that’s a big one. Other than that, sometimes formatting things bother me where it’s like hard to read and to translate and to really understand. It’s just some people get so wacky with the formatting or the colors or the whatever, the fonts. I’ve seen some where they use like the Comic Sans kind of fonts and things. I’m like, no, no, thank you. I don’t even get into the substance of it. Like I bypass and it’s terrible. I probably shouldn’t. But certain things that are immediate red flags where you’re like, no, this can’t be taken seriously. You know, when you’re talking about the three biggest mistakes and some of the pet peeves, the reality is when I receive, let’s just say a thousand applications, I can eliminate without exaggeration, 800 of those because they look like crap.

[54:51] Brian Clapp:

Yeah. So the reality check for all you that are listening, again, it does have to be the best single representation of yourself. Yeah. And make sure you’re looking at it and you’re putting a resume together with the idea that you’re the CEO of your brand, as Brian mentioned. Yeah. It’s your brand. And so do what you need to do to best sell yourself and represent yourself. And so as you were mentioning grammar and fluff and the pet peeves, it just immediately triggered to me how many people I eliminate just by looking at the resume. It’s funny, too, how some people get into. I mean, this is always an old standing joke a long time ago that somebody would work at a gas station and they’d label themselves as a petroleum transport engineer. You know, so you start to see through some of the fluff. Try to be straight. Nobody’s going to fall for that stuff. Exactly. Just try to be honest and straightforward. You’re not fooling anybody. You’re just kind of looking foolish.

Do Hiring Managers Read Cover Letters?

[55:36] Don Costante:

Now, you mentioned cover letters a moment ago. Yeah. Over the last couple of months, I’ve had the pleasure of speaking at several universities about sports management as well as providing some career advice. One question I was often asked was, how important are cover letters and do hiring managers really utilize them as a screening method to determine who to interview? Well, you illustrated the answer to that question beautifully in a recent episode on your podcast. Oh, thank you. During the episode, you referenced a research study that was done by Resume Go that surveyed 236 hiring professionals. And I found that information interesting. Can you share some of the highlights from that research?

Cover Letter Research and Best Practices

[56:13] Brian Clapp:

Yeah, for sure. It was fascinating for me, too, because I can sometimes be a bit of a data dork. What I would say for overarchingly, too, is that if somebody looks at your resume and they’re intrigued, they’ll go to your cover letter next and they’ll read to learn more about you. That’s how I do it. That’s how I did it. That’s the process. So your cover letter might not be read every single time because you even kind of pass the resume sniff test, right? They’re only going to go that next step if there’s something there that they’re intrigued by and they want to learn more. So get them, get them with your resume, finish the deal with the cover letter. But what was really fascinating, because I ask this question a lot, too, it’s like, do people still read the cover letter? I mean, if we’re going into this very digital world and everybody’s doing filters and applicant tracking systems and virtual interviews and all these other things, are people still going through the process of reading cover letters? So I found the research study and I thought it was fascinating. I think it was 84, 87 percent.

[56:58] Brian Clapp:

I can’t remember. 87. 87. Yeah, 87 percent. It was a high number. I knew that. Of the recruiters who said that they do read the cover letter. But the really interesting part, the really part that really hit home for me was that most of them are reading between zero to 20 seconds or 20 seconds to one minute. Nobody’s reading longer than a minute. Like it was very low percentage of people. 84 percent, which was amazing. Yeah. 84 percent of people are reading for less than a minute. So what does that tell you? You got to hook them right away. Your first sentence has to be something that interests them, has to be something that’s storytelling, has to be something that is letting them see more insight into you. Because remember, your resume is talking about your skill sets, your hard skills. What can you do? How are you going to be impactful at this organization? Your cover letter is an opportunity to sell your soft skills. Your cover letter is an opportunity to tell me a story about a time that you demonstrated leadership or you proved your work ethic or you showed passion or enthusiasm or whatever.

[57:51] Brian Clapp:

Right. That’s where your charisma can start to come through is on the cover letter. So you have to hook them early, make them interested in something you have to say, and then carry them through. Now, for me, almost every role I’ve ever hired in my entire career has been somewhat related to storytelling. So I live by the cover letter. I want to see if this person can craft a story. Right. I want to know if this person can sell themselves and craft and really just be able to tell me something that’s interesting. And so often that’s just not the case. I get like the regurgitated and then I did this and then I did that and then I did this and I’m like, ah, rip it off, throw it away. You know, like it’s pointless. But a well done cover letter, I think, can really, really sell somebody.

How Don Structures a Cover Letter

[58:27] Don Costante:

No question. My perspective on the cover letter when I’m talking to people, as I tell them to develop your resume and give a true reflection of your work history, the one document, in my opinion, that you customize definitely is that cover letter specific to the job that you’re going after. But as I’m looking through and we’ve used the example of a thousand applications, that’s a lot of cover letters. Yeah. And so some people, as you mentioned, Brian, write a book. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s tough to be excited to sit there and read a thousand pages of what they did and where they’re going and how they feel. For me, I always talk to people as they’re developing or looking to develop their cover letters. Listen, it is a story. There’s a beginning, a middle and an end. Capture them right away in that opening sentence. And then the middle is really saying, hey, listen, I need and exceed all or most of the qualifications. Here are a few examples. And what I tell people to do is put four or five accomplishments, bullet those accomplishments that are specific to what they’re looking for. So that if I am going to just peruse and not read your entire cover letter, where do people’s eyes gravitate towards?

[59:29] Don Costante:

Typically bullets. So I will go right to those bullets. And if I’m seeing key accomplishments that are in line with the qualifications or the job duties or what I’m looking for, it’s going to force me. If I haven’t already started with your resume, it’s going to make me want to go to your resume. And then, of course, the last paragraph is the close. So that’s kind of the construction of how I see it.

[59:46] Brian Clapp:

You know, I had an earlier version of my cover letter where I told a story. And again, it’s an edited story. It’s condensed. It’s like four paragraphs. You’re not doing a lot here. You’re not writing a novel. But I basically told the story of I was the lead editor for our NFL Sunday morning show on CNN. And it would take me two days to edit that show. On a normal week, that would take me two days worth of full-on eight-hour shift to edit all the components for that show. And it was a high-profile role among the level that I was at to be the lead editor for the show. It was our most popular show. And millions of people watched it. And so I would spend all this time. And then it was Saturday night, right before the show, this following Sunday morning, Saturday night, and everything crashed. We were using a digital system. The whole system crashed. Blue screen of death. Everything’s gone, right? And so my boss came. And she looked at me. And she said, well, you know what to do, right? And I said, yep. And then what she was saying without saying it was, you’re staying. You’re working all night if it takes it.

[1:00:37] Brian Clapp:

Because you have to get this done. This show is still on. Nobody’s going to say, like, sorry, we lost all of our components. We can’t air the show today. Like, it doesn’t work that way. It’s going to air. And so I would tell the story, essentially. And the reason I would tell it was because I was showing that I had work ethic and understanding and passion and dedication. Without just listing off that I have passion, work ethic, and dedication. I was doing it. And that was a mechanism to tell my story of accomplishment and selling my soft skills in an interesting format. It condensed that story into a couple paragraphs. And it always, always, always, I’d have people saying to me, like, I love your cover letter. That’s why you’re here today. We’re going to be on an interview. Because you’re connected. You’re trying to connect with them outside of your resume and let them know a little bit about you. People hire people. So you’re letting them see a little bit of vision into who you are in your cover letter. Absolutely. It starts to unveil who you are, not just your resume. Your resume is super important.

[1:01:28] Brian Clapp:

That’s how you get your skills out there. But they’re going to hire you based on who you are and how you fit. And you want to start to give that story to them in the cover letter. But you’re a good writer. And that’s the key there. You have to make sure that you write well to be able to tell that story. I’m a decent writer. I don’t know how good I am.

Brian’s Cover Letter Philosophy

[1:01:44] Don Costante:

I work hard at it. So now we’ve established that cover letters do indeed play a big role in determining whether or not an applicant will go on to the next step in the job seeking process. What is your, and we talked a little bit about this, but maybe in a nutshell, what’s your overall philosophy pertaining to a cover letter?

[1:02:01] Brian Clapp:

Generally speaking, keep it to a page. Hook me early. Give me some details that are interesting about you. Expand your story. Start to give me an insight into who you are. Again, when you go on an interview, what are they trying to determine? They know you have somewhat of the skill set to do the job at that point, or else they wouldn’t be calling you for an interview. They know you fit their base requirements. What they want to know is, do you fit? How are you going to work amongst this staff? Do you have charisma? Do you have the personality? Are you all just going to have all those extra soft skills? That’s what they’re looking to find out about you in this part of the process. So your cover letter is your first instance to let them start to know and see you, not just as a piece of paper. Let them start to see you, your brand, how you represent yourself, how you can sell yourself, what you stand for. All those components come through in four or five paragraphs. It doesn’t really have to be long either. I say four or five paragraphs, but it doesn’t have to be. I had one cover letter.

[1:02:53] Brian Clapp:

A friend told me about this. I did not actually get this one. But a friend told me that they received a cover letter one time, and it was for a sales job. And the cover letter essentially said, for the last three years, I’ve been selling electronics equipment in Amish country in Pennsylvania. If I was able to do that successfully, I can absolutely sell your product. And that was it. And he sent it to me. I thought it was genius. It was like, this guy’s got some personality. They’re a little bit funny about it. They clearly have some confidence. I’m interested. So sometimes it’s having your story told in a unique way. Just do something that hooks somebody and makes them interested. That’s what you’re going for with the cover letter. Interest. Interest. Interest. Interest.

The Biggest Cover Letter Mistake

[1:03:29] Don Costante:

What are the biggest mistakes people are making with their cover letters?

[1:03:31] Brian Clapp:

It’s the paragraph form. It’s taking the resumes and putting it in paragraph form. I’d say 85% to 90% of the resumes and cover letters that I see or other hiring managers that I’ve talked to will say the exact same thing. They take their resume and regurgitate it as a cover letter. They take their resume and put it in paragraph form. And then I did this. And then I did that. You get a sentence into it, and you’re like, okay, I’ve done. Enough. There’s nothing new I’m going to learn here. You have to give me a new layer. I don’t want anything on your resume to be repeated over there unless you’re expanding upon it in a way, a unique way that’s going to tell me something new and better and more interesting about you. It’s got to be another layer.

Networking Is Relationship Building

[1:04:06] Don Costante:

So throughout today, we’ve been talking now and then about networking. Early in my career, one area that I neglected was networking. Networking is so important. And by now we all know that it can help get you hired and grow your career. According to LinkedIn, 80% of professionals consider professional networking to be important to career success. 61% of professionals agree that regular online interaction with their professional network can lead the way into possible job opportunities. So, Brian, what is the most effective strategy somebody can implement to build their network?

[1:04:39] Brian Clapp:

It’s a big question, and so we’ll break this down a little bit. First thing I want to tell everybody is that networking is about relationship building. It is not accumulating connections. It is not just clicking connect and thinking you’ve completed the task. Oh, that is so true. I have 9,000 or 10,000 people that are connected to me on LinkedIn. You know, because generally speaking, if somebody has to connect with me, I look at them and they have something connected to the sport. They’re a sports management major or they’ve worked in the sports industry in one form or fashion. I’ll accept the connection. But I laugh at myself because there’s probably, I mean, 100 of those people, other than people that I’ve worked directly with, there’s probably 100 of those people that have actually worked at building a relationship or somewhat of a connection with me. That means there’s like 8,500 people who just click the button and think that they’ve done the job. And so what I’m trying to tell everybody is networking is not just add water. You can’t just click it and make a connection and think, I’ve done my job.

[1:05:36] Brian Clapp:

I connected with five people today. Unless you’re building a relationship for those people, it doesn’t matter. It does nothing for you. If one of these random people that connected with me five years ago, reach out tomorrow and says, hey, I’m applying for this job and you know this person, could you connect me with them? I’d be like, no, I don’t even know who the heck you were. You know, but then on the flip side, Gregory Goodman, I’ll mention him by name because I know he doesn’t mind it at all, is a person who was in Roanoke, Virginia. I don’t live in Roanoke, Virginia. He and I have never worked together. Over the last year, he has built a relationship with me. He’s commented on things. We’ve had conversations. He’s asked good questions. When it came time, there was a job offering coming around and he came to me and he said, listen, I’m not expecting a referral, but is there any chance you could just send my materials to your connection who you know where I’m applying? And it was like, well, yeah, I can do that. I know this person. I’ve listened to them. I’ve talked to them. I have somewhat of a relationship with them.

[1:06:26] Brian Clapp:

I’m not going to refer him and say, hey, you have to hire this person. But I can at least say to my friend, hey, this is a guy I’ve gotten to know who seems really good. You should take a look at his resume. So I get that for him. So that’s the difference in putting the work into networking and building a relationship and starting to have a dialogue with somebody versus just clicking a button and thinking that your connection actually means something. Just connecting to somebody on LinkedIn means nothing. You have to start to do something and take some activity level. And people are always like, well, I don’t know what to do. Well, it’s pretty simple, really. I mean, there’s a lot of things you can do. But for one, when somebody posts something and shares something, like Don, if you posted an article from Sports Business Journal, clearly you’re posting that because it’s something that interests you. If I was trying to connect with you, I would read the article and maybe ask you a follow-up question and say, hey, you know what? I read the article you shared. That was really interesting.

[1:07:14] Brian Clapp:

What do you think about when they talked about this factor of game presentation? Blah, blah, blah. Ask some sort of opening question. Have a dialogue. Start to probe. And what that does is the person on the other side starts to realize, okay, here’s somebody that’s taking the effort to read what I’m sharing. They’re having intelligent thoughts about it. They’re asking intelligent questions and starting a dialogue with me. That’s interesting. I want to know this person. I’m okay with this person asking these questions. And so start to provide value in that way. Bjorn Inyard was a guest on our show. He’s a senior player manager in the NFLPA. And I’m not even working with the system like I really should. But every time I see something interesting happening with the NFLPA, I’ll send it over to him and I’ll be like, whoa, I just saw this breaking news. That’s pretty crazy. How is this affecting things for you? And he and I always start some sort of a dialogue. So we’ve built a relationship. It’s effort. It’s effort. Get in their world. Be in their shoes. It’s not just clicking like either.

[1:08:05] Brian Clapp:

You click like, okay, so I post something and 82 people like it. Do you think I’m really going through and looking at every person that liked it and thinking I thought about them? No, I’m seeing this number. 82 people like that. Okay, that means it was popular. Great. I don’t know who did it. I’m not doing that extra level of research. That didn’t really matter for you that much. It doesn’t hurt to do it, but you got to do more. Sharing their posts, I always notice that. Commenting on the post, asking a good question, proving you read it, I always notice that. One of the other bit, pet peeves I had with the way people try to network is they’ll connect with me and then they’ll send a message to me with 10 paragraphs about their life story. Let’s learn things up a little bit before you start dropping your whole life story on me. Maybe start out with hello. Maybe start out with like a very simple thing, you know, like before we get into the whole life. Here’s my entire life story. What do you think I should do next? It’s like, oh my gosh. That’s too much work. Make it easy. Make it repeatable.

[1:09:00] Brian Clapp:

Start to build over time. It’s not going to happen fast. It takes a bit of time. But I’ve told this story a thousand times. I know people, like I had somebody come to me one time and say, I really want to work in operations for an NBA team. And I said, great. Go out and start reaching out to every single operations coordinator in the G League and start to build connections there. And then maybe they’ll know somebody else and you can start to work it that way. But it might take six months or it might take a year. Don’t expect us to work in the next month. And I told them I gave them an entire process. And they just started working that process and doing that and connecting and having conversations. And the next thing you know, they’re graduating and they have all these connections that are deeply connected to the exact role that they want in the industry they want. And now they’ve got some power behind it because they’ve built the relationships. It doesn’t have to be 8,000 people. It has to be the best 20. Whoever you can actually do the job with.

How Job Shadowing Creates Opportunities

[1:09:52] Don Costante:

So you talked about relationship building and cultivating networking relationships and doing so able to utilize those relationships to help leverage opportunities. I’ll give you an example. I’m a big advocate for job shadowing. And I had a young man job shadow me three games in a row. 18 hours I got to know this young man. At the end of it, he looked at me and said, hey, listen, Mr. Costante, I just applied for a full-time job with the Houston Texans. Well, the NFL is a very tough nut to crack into. And so I was so impressed with this young man. He came in actively listening, had great questions. I could sense that he had great character and the ability to be successful in the industry. I said, I tell you what I’m going to do. I’m going to make a call on your behalf and ask them as a favor to me and the Kansas City Royals if they will pull your resume and at least have a courtesy interview with you. And obviously, I can’t recommend him on job performance. He had never worked for me. But again, it came down to character and I thought he could be successful in the industry. Well, here’s the beautiful thing is that they did.

[1:10:45] Don Costante:

He was one of seven to get a phone call. Because he had job shadowed, he had seen what we’ve done. He’d seen the processes. He visually learned how we did things, the communication, the terminology. So when they were asking him specifics, he was able to pull from what he visualized, which made him a relevant candidate. And it moved from a courtesy interview into an actual interview. He ended up getting the job. And of course, he had to sell himself. But that’s how things can work.

[1:11:09] Brian Clapp:

I love that story. It’s great. It’s so true. And it’s not an edge case. It’s not like these things never happen. And I can tell people, hey, that person today next to you who’s doing six internships during their college career, they’re ahead of you. And that person that did the job shadows, they’re ahead of you. That person that did the informational interviews, the person that did this, the person that did that, they’re ahead of you. And if you have any sake of competitiveness, if you have any sense of that, then you’ve got to go after it like they are or else you’re going to be falling behind every day.

Differentiating Yourself in the Interview

[1:11:35] Don Costante:

Let’s take a moment and talk about the actual interview itself. What can somebody do to differentiate themselves from other candidates during the interview process?

[1:11:44] Brian Clapp:

It’s so much of a frame of mind. So two things in that. You have to set yourself up in the beginning, the whole pregame process, and then during the game is the interview and then afterwards, right? There’s all three phases. There’s all the shoulder programming that goes along with the actual interview itself. But overarchingly, I want people to go in with the mind frame of understanding that the person that’s interviewing you is not your enemy. They want you to be awesome. They want you to be the answer to their dreams. They want you to be the answer to their problems. They want you to be the solution. So don’t look at them in a confrontational kind of way. A lot of people come in and they’re like, I’m so afraid. They’re going to hate me and this or that. It’s like, no, they want you to be awesome. So get your mind frame that way in a positive sense first. The other thing is you have to go in with confidence and understanding the charisma and things like eye contact matter, matter a lot. All those intangible things. At this point in the game, it’s not just about what you can do. It’s about who you are and how you fit in and the cultural aspect of it all.

[1:12:40] Brian Clapp:

But let’s get into the pregame a little bit. Pregame is all about research, right? It’s about research and understanding the roles. Now, you’ve got to understand yourself. You’ve got to research yourself because nobody else is going to be answering these questions for you. You have to. So go back to your notes of your experience. Go back through all of the things you’ve done. Really make sure you understand them and those things that apply to this job. Because nobody’s going to come in and be like, oh, remember the time that you did this? No, you have to know that about yourself. So you have to research yourself. You also have to research the job, the organization, the industry, what’s happening, the trends. All those little data points. Now, you might not be asked 80% of the things that you research. But the more you research, the more comfortable you’re going to feel. The more you know about the organization and how it’s structured, how they make money, how they operate, who’s in charge, their history a little bit, recent news, things that are going on with their job. They might not ask you any of these things.

Interview Preparation and Research

[1:13:27] Brian Clapp:

They might. And you want to get prepared for it. Overall, you’re going to gain more confidence the more you know about their expectations and their structure and how they operate. So that’s all your pregame stuff. During the actual interview, eye contact really matters. Smiling really matters. Not being overly nervous. I know it’s a hard thing to do. But having that sense of charisma and being able to be in control in the room where this moment isn’t too big for you is important. It’s also not sounding rehearsed. I know this is hard for a lot of people. But when I have somebody come in and they’re in the interview and they’re talking to me like they read answers on a book that they read or an e-book or some sort of a downloaded sheet, I say, stop. Talk to me as you would talk. Talk to me as you’d talk to your friend. Talk to me as you’d talk to a professor. Like just be authentic. Be authentic. Be authentic. You have to nail on the head. That’s the right phrase right there. Be authentic. You want to hire somebody that’s real. And so if you’re acting the part, that’s not going to sell you.

Authenticity, Confidence, and Eye Contact

[1:14:22] Brian Clapp:

Right. It’s not going to sell you properly. And then it really, it’s all those moments. Yeah. I’ve told people before, like, you know, I’m interviewing for an opening. And the first interview, I’m super excited because it’s an exciting process. But the fifth one, I start to get kind of bored because they all sound the same. So sometimes like being able to be a little bit different. And I don’t mean like you’re going to come in and dance in or you’re in a strange suit or something like that. I don’t mean anything on the top. I mean, get up and go to a whiteboard and demonstrate something. Like if they ask you about an editing workflow or something of that nature. I’ve never had anybody do that. That’d be awesome. Yeah, exactly. I did that one time. I was interviewing at New England Sports Network, which was a long time ago. I was interviewing for the VVD production job and got to the CEO part of the process. And he asked me a question. And I looked at him and I said, do you mind if I use your whiteboard? And I walked up, I demonstrated the whole thing and wrote it out. Oh, wow. He said to me afterwards, the exact same thing.

[1:15:10] Brian Clapp:

He’s like, that’s the first time anybody’s ever done that. And it was a moment where he would remember me because of that thing. So I’m not saying do anything crazy. I’m just saying don’t be afraid to break out of the mold a little bit and try to maybe demonstrate something in a different way or articulate something in a different way. If it fits, don’t be different just to be different. The different, it makes sense in that moment can help. And then afterwards, there is a follow-up process, right? Like every hiring manager I talk to, and I say this to them every time I’m like, the question you get asked all the time is, well, should I ask? Should I follow up? Should I say something? There’s two things that need to happen. You have to appreciate the fact the interview happened. So send them a handwritten card. I like a handwritten card. I think it shows a little bit more intent. Oh, absolutely. I think a little more intent, a little more authenticity is way better than just sending an email. But if you’re going to send an email, fine, but I’d rather you send a card. You send a card, it’s even better because it usually hits them three days after your interview.

Following Up After the Interview

[1:16:00] Brian Clapp:

It’s a reminder point too, it makes them think about you again. But then after five days, you are fully within the realm of expectation to call and follow up and say, I just wanted to check in and see if there’s any new information I could provide to you or if there’s any new information about the role or any other questions. I could answer about me because you want to stay top of mind and that’s not inappropriate to do. You know what? I’m one of those people that was always nervous to do that. People would ask me, should I follow up? And I’m like, I don’t know. I don’t know how comfortable I am with that. And then every single hiring manager I’ve ever talked to, talent acquisition managers, CMOs, whoever does every level. I ask that question almost every time and they’re like, somebody should follow up. They should definitely follow up. Absolutely follow up. And I’m like, okay, I guess you should follow up. That’s kind of the whole art of the interview process.

Asking Quality Interview Questions

[1:16:42] Don Costante:

Oh, that’s great. The only thing I’d add is just make sure you come in with, through your research, with quality questions. Because at any time, if you’re starting to lose ground in the interview, you can make it up with the questions you ask.

[1:16:54] Brian Clapp:

I’d add two. One little quick hack. In the world of Zoom interviews, which is great, before you even set up for the interview, write down your questions you have on sticky notes and place them around your computer screen. They will never see them. Great idea. They will never see them because the webcam won’t pick them up. But then if you’re ever struggling at a moment where they say, well, what questions do you have for me? You can reference those things super quickly and you can get yourself on track again. It’s hard. You go through an hour interview and you start to lose things or forget what you wanted to ask or whatever. That’s the advantage of a phone interview or a video interview. It’s a low level hack, but put a little sticky notes around the computer to struggle. Mind you, there’s things that are important. What a great idea. I do that now with some of the stuff that I do. See, we all do it. Exactly.

Demonstrating Cultural Fit

[1:17:37] Don Costante:

You mentioned this earlier. When a candidate is selected for an interview, they have the skill set to do the job. What’s now important for the hiring manager is to determine whether or not that person is a cultural fit for the organization. Yeah. That said, what recommendations, Brian, do you have for a candidate to help them showcase that they’re a cultural fit?

[1:17:55] Brian Clapp:

Yeah. It’s all those soft skills that we were talking about earlier that need to start to come through and the charisma. Understanding the role in the environment as well. Some of your research has to go into what type of business is this? Is this a jeans and t-shirt organization? Is this a suit and tie organization? Is this a ping pong table and break room kind of an organization? Like who is it that I’m interviewing with? Because that matters how you project yourself as well. Because that matters to how you fit in culturally. So you have to know that stuff. And sometimes you can do that by connecting with people on LinkedIn and understanding if they have work there or wherever and get the answer to those questions. Or you can look at their websites and try to understand a little bit more about their culture. If they have like a wacky about us video, that tells you something, right? So do that little bit of research to get yourself comfortable. In general, though, I mean, I think most people when they’re hiring, they want to feel like this person is excited about being here. And I think that’s the thing that doesn’t come through enough.

[1:18:49] Brian Clapp:

So I had this attitude whenever I’ve been interviewing for jobs. It’s like, my goal is to go in and show them that this is the place I want to be. And I’m excited about it. Because if you’re a CEO, like, or you found a company, or if you’re a manager that’s been there for 10 years, something like that, you have some skin in the game. You care about this organization. It matters to you. You want to bring in somebody else that feels the same way, that feels the same excitement, that feels the same energy. And so I think we’re drawn to that. I truly believe that people are drawn to positive energy. And so if you come into an interview with that kind of an attitude and with that kind of a focus on having a positive sense of enthusiasm. And again, this is going to vary somewhat from organization to organization and from job to job. I mean, it might be an accounting job where they don’t want enthusiasm. They want attention to detail, right? They want somebody that’s going to be really buttoned up tight. Like, that’s different. So sometimes it depends on the role exactly and the organization.

[1:19:42] Brian Clapp:

But for me, whenever I’ve been hiring, and for most people I’ve been talking to who are in charge of hiring, so I’d say 80 to 90% of the world out there, they want to see somebody that’s excited and really enthusiastic about this opportunity. And too often, somebody comes into the room and they’re kind of bland and nervous and affected by the moment and can’t really get that personality out there. I think personality really sells in an interview process and authenticity, like you were saying earlier, authenticity, enthusiasm, energy, like some excitement. I don’t think it bouts off the wall being silly, but you can convey enthusiasm and excitement by smiling and in the tone of your voice. And you hear me through this entire interview, when I talk about this stuff, I start talking faster. I get a little bit excited. You know, this stuff matters. And so that’s the kind of attitude you want to start to convey too, that you’re like really into this moment and this opportunity. And I think that’s where a lot of people get lost in this whole idea that they have to be super buttoned up tight and very extremely professional and say the exact right thing.

[1:20:41] Brian Clapp:

And I don’t know. I don’t think that’s always the greatest sales technique for themselves.

Advanced Degrees and Career Development

[1:20:44] Don Costante:

So we talked about how to get started. We talked about resumes. We talked about cover letters and networking. I want to talk just a little bit about what resources or self-development people can do to improve themselves. So my first question for you is, what is your viewpoint on getting an advanced degree prior to entering the workforce? What advantages does that advanced degree provide a candidate?

[1:21:06] Brian Clapp:

It really depends on the roles that they’re interested in. The problem I see a lot of times is that people will decide to go for their masters almost as a delay tactic. They’re not sure exactly what they want to do. So I’ll go get my master’s and I’ll figure it out. And that’s a really expensive way to figure something out, especially if it doesn’t really, in a material way, affect your job prospects in a positive way. There are a lot of jobs in the sports industry that a master’s doesn’t matter. It’s not really what is in demand. I never had a job in the industry where a master’s would have improved my opportunities. But a lot of jobs in college athletics, most every single one, jobs in college athletics require a master’s. So if you want to work in college athletics, you better have that as your frame of mind to get your master’s and get an advanced degree. That’s part of the process. And it makes sense because the universities themselves actually want to prove and show that it matters to have a master’s. It’s like validating your own existence. A lot of jobs in the industry, I did this study, it was probably a year ago now.

[1:22:04] Brian Clapp:

I’m not going to have the exact details. But we had 25,000 jobs on our job board at the time. And basically, I did a little bit of a filtering study over the previous 10 years of saying how many jobs had the term master’s required or master’s preferred in them. And the number was really low. It was something like, and I’m going to get this wrong, but it was something like 14% said master’s preferred and like 7% said master’s required. So you have to ask yourself the question of, does this help me? And if it doesn’t, don’t do it because it’s expensive. Now, I would tell people a lot of times too, that there are a lot of really, really good programs out there because I’ve done a lot of work with a lot of really good programs. And I’m not trying to say they’re not worth it. They are. They’re great programs. You can learn a lot. A lot of the programs that are housed in the business school are the ones that I tend to prefer because I think that they have a deep focus on how the business of sports works. And I think that’s really important. How revenue is generated, how deals work, et cetera.

[1:23:06] Brian Clapp:

I think that’s super important. So if you’re going to do it, don’t just do it for the sake of doing it. Make sure to track who you want to end up being in your career and life and make sure that you get on with one of these programs that has a really good focus. I tell people, look at the curriculum. They post them online. Look at the courses that are offered. Are they interested? Does it get you excited? Like if you read these things and say like, whoa, that sounds like a really fun class. Because for me right now, sometimes when I go back and look at these curriculums in some of the schools, I read through and I’m like, that sounds kind of cool. That sounds kind of neat. You know, like, so if you don’t get that vibe, then don’t do it. You know, like you have to make sure that it really does line up with your excitement level and pushes you further in the direction you want to be. Well, I can tell you when I’m looking at resumes, I’m not looking to see whether they have a master’s or an advanced degree, or if they don’t, it all comes back to experience. So I tell young people when they’re asking me, should I go on and get my

[1:23:53] Brian Clapp:

master’s or not? I said, well, here’s the reality. The reality is I would never tell anybody if you can further your education, that’s a bad thing. It’s not. Go ahead and do it. If you can understand that it comes down to experience. If you go and get your master’s and you’re not able to continue to get experiences, whether it’s internships or whatever, then those people who have graduated and in the marketplace getting an internship and then a second internship and moving on by the time you’re done with your master’s program, whether it’s a year or two years, they’re going to be moving on to a coordinator. You’re going to be starting as an intern. You’re not going to get any kind of special treatment because now you have an advanced degree. So I totally agree with you. 100%. I mean, I know for a fact, like I look at it and say, my first two years working at CNN were like getting my master’s. I was learning from the best people in the industry. The absolute best practices of how things should be done. That set me up for success. I had that on my resume forever and I didn’t pay for it.

[1:24:40] Brian Clapp:

They paid me. So again, I’m with you. I would never tell anybody not to further their education. I think education is super important, but I love, love, love experience. Now in preparation for this, I was doing a little research on you and I heard you recently

Three Skills Everyone Should Learn

[1:24:51] Don Costante:

say on your podcast, the three skills that everybody should learn are Excel, Google Analytics and Photoshop. Can you take a moment and explain why you believe that those skills are essential?

[1:25:02] Brian Clapp:

Yeah. So I get asked a lot about what skills should I learn? What things should I do? How can I stand out? And so I wanted to kind of articulate a little bit in a way that I thought might surprise people. You think of sports in a different frame a lot of times than most other businesses, but sports is just another huge business. And one thing that I’ve learned is when I got into the industry, I spent a lot more time working in Excel spreadsheets doing, especially when I got into the digital side, especially when I’m working on the website side, you’re doing a lot more work on, you know, return on marketing investment and open rates and click-through rates and percentage drops and all these kinds of things. You’re working a lot of numbers because it’s becoming a more and more data-driven world. We are so much more focused on data information and data-driven decision models. I’m sure you have it with Royals a lot too. You’ve been able to tell fan engagement and interest and who’s hanging around and doing this and you get all these data sets back. So if you can really understand and control that information and really understand how

[1:25:55] Brian Clapp:

to translate it, administer it, present it, super powerful to know Excel. If you’re on the digital side, I don’t think any of these things can really hurt you in any role that you want to be in. But Google Analytics is this free, crazy, powerful tool that can literally tell you when your customer comes in through this article, they then do this and then they do this, submit their email over here. And 84% of people do this and they spend three minutes and eight seconds on your site each day. And it’s like you get all this data and you can start to understand who your users are, who the personas are, what they do when they show up on your site, where they leave from what’s not working for them. When certain things are great or certain things are bad, these are super powerful tools to start to understand your user. Now, that tends to be in a more digital sense, but every organization, every team, every league, every business has a digital presence. So if you understand the metrics that are used to evaluating an audience, it’s really, really super powerful. So Excel, Google Analytics, super important.

[1:26:57] Brian Clapp:

The third one being Photoshop. I’m not a graphic designer, but I use Photoshop. And actually, I don’t even use Photoshop. I use a knockoff product that’s a lot cheaper. But I use graphic manipulation, I guess is my point. I use PicMonkey, not that they pay me anything, but it’s a really cool tool. And it’s like $33 a year versus Photoshop, I don’t know, more. Anyway, my point is, I had an interview one time with the director of corporate partnerships for Atlanta United FC. And I asked him, I said, what is a skill that would make somebody stand out from the rest of the pack? And he said, this might surprise you, but it’s Photoshop. I’m like, okay, tell me more on trees. And he basically went through and said, we have a graphic design team, but they are so often working on promotions, billboards, and marketing activations, and social media graphics. They’re working on other departments’ needs, and those become higher priority for them. But I’m presenting to CEOs across this region and trying to convince them to spend millions of dollars with our organizations for sponsorships and partnerships.

[1:27:53] Brian Clapp:

And I need to put together really kick-ass presentations. And if I had somebody on my team that had sales knowledge and could do Photoshop, winner. I got somebody on my team who can help me create these things on a quick pace and time. And I’ve expanded that conversation with hundreds of other people in the industry who always said to me, oh my God, if somebody had Photoshop skills and was a part of our department, that would be incredible. You don’t realize how much we are visual as a society and as a sports industry nowadays. So much of what we do is visual, and that comes to graphic manipulation. And it can’t be cheesy. It’s got to be high profile, well done. You’re representing these major brands. So it’s one of those things that can stand out on a resume that can really put you ahead of everybody else. So those are just three things that I really like. I think are powerful tools that if you have knowledge in, it would never hurt you to know those things. Well, if your goal was to surprise somebody with those, you did when I heard it. I appreciate you explaining all of that.

Resources for Sports Job Seekers

[1:28:48] Don Costante:

So what resources in the marketplace would you recommend right now to job seekers?

[1:28:52] Brian Clapp:

Well, I mean, obviously work in sports. We’ve been around since 1999. It’s crazy. In February of last year, we hit our high watermark of 27,000 jobs on our job board actively. Wow. And then by April or May, it was down to like seven or eight. You know, it just like plummeted. And then we all expected that we all knew it was coming after our world the way it was. But we’ve rebounded. We’re back up around 17,000 or 18,000 now. And that will get even higher in the spring as we get closer to somewhat back to normal, which is really cool. And I’m not just saying it’s because I work at the organization, obviously. But we have all kinds of free tools. You know, somebody comes on, they can listen to our podcast, they can read our content, they can access some of our jobs. And that’s great. We do a lot of stuff that we give away for free to be sharing and helping as much as we can. I go out and speak all across the country. I’m in a lot of different classrooms just trying to help, right? But in addition to that, our premium members, people that are getting to the site, they have access to all of our jobs.

[1:29:42] Brian Clapp:

And what’s cool is if you’re looking in a thousand resumes, that’s hard for you to look at and figure out who that right candidate is. We feel the same way about our job board. We have 17,000 jobs. I don’t expect somebody to go in and look at all 17,000. So what we do is we take your resume when you’re a premium member, we take your resume and we match it against the jobs that are in our database and give you back matches. And hey, these are ones you should really start to consider. Now, once you get in our system, that happens in real time. So if somebody posts a job, you will get notified that you’re a good match for it. And time is of the essence, right? So when you’re a premium member, we start to alert you faster and differently based on not just a job alert that’s like every job that’s new, it’s really deeply on your resume. Now, the cool thing with that too, when an employer posts a job on our site, the exact opposite happens. They post their job and it goes through our system of resumes, pulls out the best matches and tells them, these are the 100 people that are really well suited for this job.

[1:30:40] Brian Clapp:

Here’s how to get in touch with them today. And so we’re trying to be like the matchmaker for the sports industry as well. There’s a lot of powerful tools that come out from being a premium member at our job board. It never sounds strange to a lot of people. A lot of people are like, well, why should I pay for access to a job board? But I kind of explained to you like this, there’s two basic business models in the job board world. Either the employer pays, all these different teams pay a job board, and that’s how the job board makes their money. Or you go out and say, we’re going to charge the membership and we’re going to charge the people, the job seekers. Well, what happens differently in those two business models? If the employer is the only one paying, well, that means that job board will only have the jobs of the employer’s line to pay. So they might have a thousand jobs in their job board. For us, it was important to have all the jobs in the industry. So we have 17,000 jobs. And that’s a difference. It’s opportunity. We have more jobs in our job board because of the way we’ve built this business model.

[1:31:33] Brian Clapp:

And that’s why we throw in a lot of these other tools with it to make the value of a membership really meaningful. Wow. That’s incredible.

Final Thoughts From Brian Clapp

[1:31:40] Don Costante:

So we come to our final question of the day. Uh-oh. For all those listening to today’s discussion, is there anything that we haven’t addressed that you’d like to share? And what are your final thoughts?

[1:31:50] Brian Clapp:

Oh boy. I have talked a lot. So I don’t know if there’s too much that I missed. I think it’s really overarchingly, the job seeking process is work. And I think that a lot of people are hoping on magic. There’s a hope and that hope is not really a strategy. And I think if you go through the proper steps and you say to yourself, what does the industry need? What are they telling me that they want? And getting those skills? I’m telling you, that probably right there puts you ahead of 90% of the industry. You identify something that interests you and you start putting a plan together to gain the skills. Because when we talk about this entire conversation, it’s about getting noticed and in the consideration set. And that means getting that phone interview or getting that opportunity to be in front of somebody. And the way that’s going to happen is by matching up with what’s in demand. There’s other ways it does happen. It’s not the only way, but you really increase your chances if you match the industry. And what I’d also say too, and this is going to go somewhat contrary to what I was saying

[1:32:50] Brian Clapp:

earlier, but it does make sense, is there used to be this belief that it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. The whole idea that knowing the right people is what would control your destiny. And I hate, hate, hate, hate that saying. Because to me, it’s the start of an excuse. To me, it’s somebody saying, well, they got the job because they knew somebody and I don’t know anybody and that’s why I didn’t get the job. And I think that is a cop-out. Networking is part of the process. Getting to know people is part of the process. But nobody nowadays is hiring somebody just because they know somebody. They have to have the skill set to go with it. And I’ll give you a quick example on that. When I started in the sports industry, it was 1996. And that’s when this was still happening. People were getting hired because they were somebody’s son, somebody’s nephew, somebody’s whatever. We had five people that were in our office that were hired because they were the son of a sports media critic or they were the New York Yankees president’s nephew or something along that line. There were five people that fit that description.

[1:33:54] Brian Clapp:

All five of them, all five of them were gone within a year because they couldn’t do the job. They couldn’t do the job. And so my plan saying that is that employers have gotten smarter. Before, they used to think, oh, well, I have to hire this person because they’re connected and they know this person. Now they’re like, that doesn’t matter. That doesn’t matter. Hiring them because they can do the job. And so knowing people is important. Like we’ve talked about during this conversation, but don’t rely on that. And don’t think that that’s the only thing that matters. It’s a combination of all the things. That’s why we talked about the very beginning, the four pillars, all four of them. You need all four of them. Any one of them you don’t have, the roof can start to fall down, but all four of them, when you have them, you have a pretty good setup for success. Brian, I really appreciate you taking the time today to share your expertise with our listeners. I know that this information will help inspire career seekers to think differently as they tackle the sports industry’s job market. Thank you so much.

[1:34:43] Brian Clapp:

My pleasure, Don. Thank you for having me.

[1:34:49] Brian Clapp:

Wow.

Don Costante’s Key Takeaways

[1:34:50] Don Costante:

Brian’s advice is spot on. Sure. We had a difference of opinion regarding resumes, but that’s what made this episode so insightful. The content and the tactics shared is exactly the type of information I wish I had when I was going through the process. Ultimately, you must determine for yourself what tactics work best for you. Remember, you are the CEO of your brand and the decisions you make need to reflect your brand correctly. Now, we covered a lot of information in today’s conversation. Here are some of my takeaways. When I asked Brian about the first step anyone should take before starting the job search, he talked about the four major pillars to getting hired in any industry. First, you must have the right experience and the right skill set for the job you want. Second, have a network, a network that you’re growing and cultivating. Third, you need to have a resume, cover letter, and a personal brand that is on point. And fourth, you need to be able to handle the interview process. If you have all four pillars mastered, you’re really in a good position. Now, when it comes to identifying the jobs you should apply for, I loved what Brian said.

[1:35:56] Don Costante:

He said, when looking at a job description that lists 10 skills, if you have six of them, it’s worth applying for. You don’t have to have all 10. That’s an employer’s wish list. It’s their dream scenario. Go for it. As we talked about resumes and applying for jobs online, Brian made a really good point. The chances are your resume is going to go through an applicant tracking system. The first thing a computer system does is it strips out all of your formatting. So if your resume has columns, just realize that the computer system reads from left to right, and it’s going to jumble your sentences and bullets and information based on left to right and not up and down. Therefore, it’s so important to make a generic version of your resume that is stripped down and formatted in a basic left to right manner. Another point that Brian made regarding resumes, which I am in total agreement with, when it comes to objective or mission statements, it’s a complete waste of space for two reasons. First, most people have no idea how to write them. And second, providing an employer with what you’re looking for or what’s going to make you happy

[1:36:59] Don Costante:

doesn’t speak to the employer’s wants and needs. Those things are assumed because you’re already applying for the job. So do away with the objective or mission statements and focus on what’s most important, experience. When we talked about cover letters, Brian provided some valuable insights. He said 87% of recruiters read cover letters. More importantly, 84% of those reading the cover letters spend less than one minute doing so. So what did Brian say? Your first sentence has to be something of interest that will grab the hiring manager’s attention. It has to be something that’s storytelling and gives more insight into who you are. Because remember, the resume sells your hard skills. Your cover letter is an opportunity to showcase your soft skills. So when I asked Brian about the most effective strategy somebody can implement to build their network, I loved what he said. He said, networking is relationship building. It is not accumulating connections. It’s not just clicking connect and thinking you’ve completed the task. Put the work and effort into it and build relationships over time.

[1:38:05] Don Costante:

It’s a process. And finally, I really loved what Brian said in his final thoughts. He said that the job seeking process is work. That a lot of people rely too much on hope. And that hope really isn’t a strategy. But if you go through the proper steps, identify what interests you and find out what do those companies within that industry need? And what are they telling you that they want? If you do that and you start putting together a plan to gain those skills, that strategy will put you ahead of 90% of your competition. I could go on, but those were just a few highlights from our discussion that resonated with me. As always, I hope you found the information we covered beneficial. I want to thank Brian for being on the podcast and for sharing his thoughts and best practices with all of us. Well, that wraps up this episode of The Rundown. As always, I encourage you to reach out to me and share your thoughts. And or questions and send them to the rundown at Costante group.com. That’s the rundown at Costante group.com. Also, I would really appreciate it if you would subscribe and share this podcast and follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram.

[1:39:13] Don Costante:

And until the next time, I’m Don Costante.